Sarah Martin
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Oh man, thank you for this Mr Lefsetz.
We don't know each and I have a huge regard for your work ( that of which I am aware ) and I wouldn't presume to call you Bob.
It's tough to know where to begin, but as a woman (mother, ex-cop, actor, jazz singer, chicken owner ) I am fucking fed up with the #metoo movement.... and I would agree with you that it is not serving the women's movement the way they think or intend it to and it will turn against women.
It's only a matter of time, and not a long time, I don't believe.
I absolutely think that Louis C.K.should be back doing what he does best, or at least for a living, and I can't believe how many men having been scrubbed from existence without any due process, but simply because they were lynched in the court of public opinion.
I heard someone say " well, the victim, the woman has said that it happened and she MUST be believed ".... that we have to support all victims and not "victim-blame" (god I hate that term).... No frickin way do we just believe her. As an ex cop I can't tell you how many times it turned out SHE was lying! For real ! And in all these high profile cases, by god if it turns out she is lying, throw the book at her and charge her with every public mischief charge etc that there is.
I am ranting but I am heartened that you have written about this and would love to share your piece in my platforms but I don't know if you want that sort of thing. And I absolutely understand if not and love reading your newsletter .... Thank you very much
Tanya Wills
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So, being wealthy and not suffering legal consequences for sexual harassment is not enough for Louis?
Many of us who have not used our positions of power to sexually harass women would be perfectly thrilled to find ourselves in a financially comfortable position, and without legal trouble.
Cry me a river.
Robin Simmons
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I've never been compelled to respond to your newsletters before, though I regularly read both the letters and the mailbag responses. Today I feel moved to commend you on taking a public stance on Louis CK. Do I think he's a creep? Absolutely. Will I go see his show? Definitely not. As an American consumer, I decide who and what I give my money to, and I try to avoid giving it to people who whip out their genitals on unsuspecting women.
However, the point in your letter that struck me was that men, for the most part, have been silenced in this "dialogue." I think any campaign that silences the opposition would do well to re-evaluate its tactics - as every action has an equal and opposite reaction, you can bet that the legions of men holding their tongues will find an outlet sooner or later. And they won't be kind in their retaliation. As a woman (unable to avoid SOME identity politics here), I'm sensitive to being silenced. My opinion is systemically discredited and ignored. I'd go so far as to say that men are perhaps finally getting a taste of their own medicine. But I do believe the hysteria has gone too far - the train has gone off the rails, perspective and chances of productive conversation have been lost. At least that's what I'm seeing on Twitter.
I'm sure you're going to receive many, MANY responses across the spectrum for this letter. I don't agree with everything you say here, but I'm so, so glad you said it. Thanks.
Katie Barton, New York
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Reading this makes me feel like you are still VERY confused about this movement. Males are involved in the solution because they are the solution. Stop making sexual advances in the workplace. Period.
Aww, and if you feel uncomfortable, or confused by process, timing, and how to handle things- welcome to our f'ing everyday.
From a friend, "In C.K.'s case, the total lack of outward effort to directly contribute to positive change speaks volumes about the presumption that timeout = time served -- and that's wrong. I'm all for restorative justice; I've seen firsthand the detrimental impact of punitive justice. But restorative justice can only work if those who've committed wrongful behavior step up in a public way to change the cultures that facilitated their behavior."
Emily Scharnhorst
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I can hear the keyboards of women clicking away…and men afraid to say anything. Just like that amazing skit on SNL about Me Too: youtu.be/evWiz6WRbCA
Gary Helsinger
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SPOT ON !!!
One of the best yet.
Thanks Bob for keeping it real & not kowtowing to the .....well to any one !
Kind Regards,
Glen
Adelaide, South Australia.
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This is the best shit you've written in awhile. I'm a bleeding-heart liberal and fully admit white men have fucked things up in every way for centuries for everyone the world over. But, if you ostracize them all now, you're creating the same cycle of hate that led to the moment we're seeing right now (and yes, while we're at it I think Jordan Peterson is a moron, too).
You're gonna have a ton of little white boys growing up and being spit on having never done anything wrong, and they're going to get fucking angry. And then we're back to where we started at the beginning of time. EVERYone needs a seat at the table. Due process has to be put in place for every accusation. What's going on at Stanford and with DeVos is fucking horseshit, too. It all is.
This is why things are the way that they are -- Democrats keep walking up to "play" three-card-monty, and Republicans keep flipping the cards. This isn't a game, none of it is, and until we start making our own rules and playing by them they're gonna keep turning us all against each other.
Coty Levandoski
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He's done literally nothing to make amends. I'll never give him any attention again.
Buffy Visick
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Great article Bob . Fair play .
Michael Brunnock
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I agree with you about Louis C. K. and the rest of your post on this. I am curious tho does Al Franken also deserve to work to get a second chance to be a Senator or is that different because our leaders need to be held to a higher standard? He apologized tried to make amends and maybe succumbed to quick. Of course currently we don't have many leaders operating within the frame work of a higher standard!
I was just curious! Thanks and have a great day!
Kathy Bonner
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Comics do not generally recover well from such scandals as I have learned as an event producer.
One Ms.Poundstone had an uphill battle with draw after her debacle (in Canada anyway),Bill Cosby still toured and people protested and also stayed away,also many venues foolish enough to take on a show learned first hand-folks do actually remember such folly...this is a few years ago,
Oddly they gave a pass to the head clown running the show known now as the USA reality show.As for Louis CK ...hide for a half dozen years and then see -the comeback has been DELAYED.
Very spooky indeed what is going on with all of it,,average joe has to shut the fuck up or face a spanking from haters in all directions.
If you use this in any way please withold my name.
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Tell you what Bob. Ask Louis what was going through his head when he was masturbating in front of those women. If it rings true right another email. If it doesn't, fuck him. There's a lot of talented comedians to take his place.
Steven Casper
PS.
If you're talking to men that are freaked out by me too, fuck them as well. It's not that hard to treat people with respect.
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Bullseye. We can't go around burning men at the stake. We need their help too. We are indeed all in this together. Thanks for continuing the conversation.
Mad Love from a Canadian in South India,
Melissa Marie
P.S. Louis' talent will soar above his mistakes!!!
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One of the best distillations I've yet to read on not just Louis C.K., but the entire issues outlined here. Kudos to YOU.
~Inessa Anderson www.theinessablogcom
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sexist and tone-deaf.
go talk to a #metoo victim. or give michael ian black a call.
Britton Taylor
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When people bring up #MeToo I like to show them this photo which highlights the hypocrisy of movement. This is a full page ad in NY Mag from a company (DKNY) that was owned by a woman, whose name is still associated with the company and who sell their wares to women around the world. Of course, men get to see this as well as it was placed in a general, multi interest publication so.....how does seeing a woman preparing to masterbate advance the cause of protecting women and their rights? We should ostracize Louis C.K for life but this is ok? Absurd. If women feel it's ok to objectify women, nothing will change. When the most celebrated female in the world (Kim K) is famous for a sex tape, our values are completely out of wack.
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Sorry, Bob, but this is a bad take.
Louis denied this behavior for years while engaging in it and only fessed up when he was caught dead-to-rights. He based his persona and career on being a truth-teller but would not apply that standard to his own self until he was forced to.
He is in no way hurting for money. He is a filmmaker and a writer and could easily pursue those avenues without public scrutiny if staying away for longer than 9 months is somehow cruel and unusual punishment for him. But to just reappear, unannounced, and not even address it directly? To not go further with his apology or make further amends? To not advocate against this kind of behavior from his fellow entitled male shithead stars?
Someone pointed out on Twitter yesterday that Winona Ryder was in Celeb Shoplifting Jail for the better part of two decades. For years her name could not be mentioned without "accused shoplifter" appended to it. And you want Louis to be able to just waltz back into the public after not even a year? Have we learned nothing?
Apparently.
Curtis McCrary, on the move
Executive Director, The Rialto Theatre
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Good one Bob...
Mitchell Fox
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"Oh, don't unsubscribe because I told the truth. Or maybe you should, because you can't handle it." Gaslighting much, Bob? Show me how LCK has made any effort to atone for what he did. He doesn't "need" to comeback. We don't need his perspective if it hasn't changed. And women have brought plenty of men into the discussion or did you miss that because they weren't the men who think like you? You think we should somehow be looking to Dave Chappell or LCK or you for the proper way to move forward, the proper way to see things and keep hold of the narrative because you imagine you and people like you still set that narrative. But, it's only because we've allowed it. Not any more. Not when you put the perpetrators comeback over the victims need for understanding and change or even try to make them equally important. So, I'll take my pussy hat and fucking unsubscribe not because I can't handle it but because we don't need your perspective to deal with ours. At least Michael Ian Black had the humility to eventually listen. And, if men are afraid it's because they still aren't listening. I'm so glad we are finally recognizing that we don't need an arrogant windbag telling us how to think. We've seen it from your male perspective for decades because we were told that just was "the" perspective. Fuck that for fucking ever.
Lala
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Ninja, please.
Louis C.K. is/was as bad an actor and comic as 45 is an excuse
for a president. Didn't need either of them to begin with, and
still having one of them annihilating any moment of zen is
more than enough.
Our supersonic trigger point comes from
the fact that in 2018 and for 50+ years,
women have to still fight to keep
church, state and federal laws off our bodies.
You want to be involved? Help us vote out
any judge, congressman, senator, councilman, lawmaker
or the like who thinks they have the right to govern over
what's not been, and what will never been theirs.
That's been the problem since the dawn of man, and continues to
rear its ugly head. Pun intended.
Too many of us fighting females have had to learn to "grow a set"
to get heard.
I don't know of any straight guy who's been able to grow a pussy.
bit.ly/2MFxO6U
RIP Lesley Gore
The video was created six years ago; the song, produced
by Quincy Jones, in 1964.
Love ya Bobby.
Janie Hoffman
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This post nailed it, Bob. An important piece.
Jeremy Speigel
Toronto
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Louis C. K. is the absolute best comic in America. I am not concerned about his extra curricular activities ( stroking himself in front of women unexpectedly). Weird yes - a threat really?? I think not. He is funny, insightful and deserves to be able to make a living. And on Browne, everyone in LA knows Hannah is less than credible and is herself admittedly bi polar. No question women have gotten a raw deal since the dawn of time. Absolute power corrupts absolutely etc. etc. ( i.e. Weinstein, spacey - the list is endless...) but there has to be some kind of objectivity about charges against whomever and not just tying the guy to a stake and lighting the fire. Al Franken was totally drummed out for next to nothing by those chicken shits in the Democratic leadership.
So now all men are silent and afraid to venture forth and the METOO group is supposed to lead us into the November election. It is up to the women of America now.
Matthew Conway Dunn
Principal
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Imagine you work at a corporation where a top ranking executive repeatedly lures bottom rung workers into his office, locks the door and masturbates in front of them. Eventually enough workers get up enough courage to lodge enough complaints - he apologizes (in a tone-deaf way) and bolts. Months later, you show up for work and there he is in his office again, acting like everything is normal. How would you react?
Instead of returning to the scene of the crime unannounced, maybe C.K. should headline his own tour, or film another comedy special to sell online. That way his fans can support him, and everyone else can decide for themselves if they want to be exposed to him or not.
Alex Ganetakos
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That's right, the rich don't like affirmative action because that lowers the odds their kids will get into the Ivies. -- Of all the doozies in your email, this one is larger than what I feel comfortable ignoring. The rich don't like affirmative action because they believe their kids are ENTITLED to a better education than the lower class. Education is the only way out of poverty, and they know this. Heaven forfend the 1% include the "riff raff." And it's not just the rich who don't like affirmative action- it's the majority of white people because, they too, think they are entitled to the best of everything-to hell with women and people of color having an equal chance at anything!!!
Jennifer Johnson
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"Maybe it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, someone displaying their junk. Maybe it even seems funny – certainly not hurtful like real sexual abuse. No one's touching you, after all. But when a man you know, trust, and respect pulls their erect dick out of their pants and starts masturbating in front of you out of nowhere, especially if that man is in a position of power, it can be life-changing. I didn't realize someone pulling their dick out could be so impactful until it happened to me."
boingboing.net/2018/08/30/someone-pulled-their-dick-out.html
Xeni Jardin
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Look up Michael Ian Black. He stood up and talked about the CK Louis coming back and he's being roasted.
I agree on your points.
Anonymous please as I work in a female dominated industry thanks.
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Of course Louis C.K should come back. Unfortunately, we don't live in a forgive and forget society. Look at the penal system. Do the crime and do the time but the time is forever. Once released a former inmate will wear the scarlet "C" for the rest of their lives. No job, no credit, no housing. This is why the recidivism rate is so high.
Maybe if we forgive and forget what the entertainers did, there will eventually be a trickle down effect onto the rest of the prison population. Maybe but I highly doubt it.
As for me, where is he playing next as I want to laugh again.
Paul
F Paul Mooney, Jr.
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This whole thing about Louie C.K. doing a tiny set on his old stomping grounds seems so GD overblown.
Look, what he did was despicable (not to mention just plain strange ... I mean, we all have our "thing" but how whipping out your John Thomas for a public rub and tug is your "thing" confounds me) and he did the right thing. The ONLY thing, he owned it and then shut the hell up. Is he supposed to stay away forever?
And look, up until recently (and probably still true), one of the reasons you went to comedy clubs was the hope that an A-list comedian would stop by and either hang out or work on new material. So I'm a little suspect of those that cry foul at a suprise appearance. Would they have had the same reaction if Dave Chappelle showed up? "Well, listen Mr. Comedy Store Owner, you DIDN'T tell me ahead of time that Dave Chappelle was showing up. I'm allergic to pot smoke." Please.
I'm not saying Louie C.K. should get a pass and I'm not saying women don't deserve to share their stories (and there are simply far too many stories) but I'm not comfortable that banishment is the answer if no legal recourse can be taken. Has Louie atoned? No. I don't feel he has. But I don't even know what that would look like. Open forum discussion? Tar and feathering? As you point out, he'll NEVER escape this. Never. And he never should. This is new territory for ALL OF US, both men and women ... or whatever gender identifier one uses or doesn't use.
But if there is one comedian who can turn his "thing" into both a lesson and a good story, it's Louie C.K.
I feel we need to let him try.
Keith R. Higgons
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Bob, I totally agree with what you're saying here.
For a long time, things have been established a certain way in our society where men thought these things were cool, and women went along with it and in many ways benefitted, and as you say, still ran the home anyhow.
The truth is that it's very difficult to totally change everyone overnight, no matter how many people come forward and claim these guys did these and so forth.
I actually felt like putting forth a complaint that Weinstein DIDN'T harass me, and I didn't get any Oscars!
Not at all saying that was how Oscars were won, but only trying to make a point there are two sides to every story, and sure, I've been plenty harassed all my life but learned how to work around it and so did all my friends who were alive all these years and bothered to put on pretty clothes and makeup.
This now is where a fellow can't even compliment you on your outfit, and that definitely puts a sad note on things.
Anyhow, eventually things will even out where it's not so crazy, I hope -
Sincerely,
Amanda
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Spot on - and there remain a lot of women still defending and working for the "pussy grabber in chief."
I would state the issue really remains power and that more men still have it. Look at #s in elected offices and in the board room and in management.
I believe in rehab and redemption and working for it; indeed I generally cheer it.
On the other hand certain conducts induces to never welcome someone back in.
Thank you for grappling intelligently with a tough subject.
Corey Bearak
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Great blog!
Young Hutchinson
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LCK has every right to perform again. And the audience has every right to go dancing instead of seeing his creepy ass onstage. He made his bed. You won't find me - a former REALLY BIG FAN - losing any sleep over his career.
Because what you leave out is that for YEARS, LCK with a giant megaphone called these women liars and gossips. But guess what? They weren't. They were victims. So fuck LCK and every guy like him. They're creeps and don't understand how to fully treat every individual like a human being with all the rights, freedoms and independence that comes with that.
Matt Robertson
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I'm 100% in agreement with you. I recognize myself reflexively agreeing with women criticizing C.K.'s return -- and every other current event with feminist angles -- without fully considering the situation. The stage is therapy for Louis. That's his act. People act like they don't know his shtick.
Gordon Chaffin
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Don't know how you're still far left in this day and age, but really well written piece!
Great stuff!
Tim Metcalfe
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Nailed it...
Left of Center & Female
Deirdre Hill
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You're gonna get your ass kicked for this one Bob.
Just one point, I don't think the 'Trump jam' was achieved by the educated ignoring aspects of society. I think Trump is a manifestation of the American id. My old colleague Gary Lachman (Valentine) has written an interesting book on the subjectb with occult overtones:
Dark Star Rising: Magick and Power in the Age of Trump www.amazon.com/dp/B075C8BQS5/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_CSaIBbHKW1YMV
That Trump is a 'tulpa', a being that has been manifested through thoughts. Obama was the anomaly, this shit has been here under the surface in varying degrees since day one. "America has had a date with fascism coming for a long time now"
I'm mystified by mens twitchy reactions to #metoo. Sexism is like xenophobia in the US, always absurdly here, another level of cross cultural Jim Crow.
Chris Stein
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Wow so brilliant. Thanks for having the balls to speak truths on this complicated/mind field topic.
Zander Bleck
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......excellent entry, bob!
Tommy Allen
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Louis CK is a true talent. We have good, bad, JEALOUS, wonderful women judging him. I do not know what happened, and I really DO NOT WANT TO MAKE A JUDGEMENT CALL. This is not the way it is supposed to work. One example is the older girl with the young boy. (you know who) it didn't happen, now it did. That is just one....!!! Too easy to make a mistake.!!!! We are better then this.
Dennis Rubenstein
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This is probably your worst take ever, Bob
Chris Schetter
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It isn't only about CK whipping his dick out. It's what he did to keep his victims silent.
On occasion you are so fucking tone deaf I am flummoxed, and this is one of those occasions.
Now, he does a show as honest and hard as Hannah Gadsby's Nanette…then the motherfucker can come back.
Billy Fields
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Bob, I love ya, but this take is super dumb, checked out, and misses the point. Are you just going for provocative clickbait now?
Melinda LeMoine
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HR appropriate - I love you!!!
Metoo. Shmeetoo
You articulate my thoughts better than I ever could. It's like our steam of consciousness blends.
Please!! Never stop telling your truth & challenging us w the hard questions. Brilliant!!!
Thank you
Agree. Agree. Agree
Barbara Stevens
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Well said
One of the better commentaries on this situation
Thank you
Jehu Martin
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I sort of agree, but it's worth noting that he never did actually apologize. Being "remorseful" is not directly apologizing. I'm not taking away "credit" for owning up, but have we really set the bar that low?
Best,
Mike Erario
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Men are definitely allowed to, and should, use their voice, and it's great that you are. But I don't see many trying, is it that they are trying and being shot down? Or not saying anything at all?
To me it seems like we only hear women because they're the only ones talking, but we want to hear from men too.
Nicole O'Sullivan
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truth,
people need to remember the nuance of the Louis situation too.
Two girls, who didn't work for him/etc voluntarily came back to his room for drinks.
he asked them if it was ok if he jerked off (not my style, but it shouldn't be a death bell to ask for what you want).. they laughed, didn't say no and didn't leave…
I'm trying to figure out how exactly that is his fault..
Graham Farrar
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I have to say thank you for a wise statement. People have to quit responding without thinking. Gender roles in America are changing, that's good news since the roles assigned for both woman and men ?have done damage, not only For women but for men as well. The damage to men is just more subtle, and not seen so clearly.
It's only when we realize we are in the together that we can make changes we need to. Men have heavy dues to pay I know but without communication, ?the future is bleek.
Thanks again,
Bob Whiteley
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Thank you for speaking truth to power.
I love and respect women and the approval of women in my life like my wife, and my women friends, and the women I work with is deeply important to my self esteem and my sense of being a good man.
But when I get shamed and shut down for simply telling the truth as I see it - like telling my wife and women friends that Hillary Clinton gave me the creeps and she was going to lose - then it goes too far. And women can make fun of Bernie's bad hair, and make public jokes about bald and fat guys at work? I don't think so.
I understand women have been held down and treated terribly for centuries. But that doesn't mean just because I'm a man that I'm responsible or guilty for all of that. I understand women and minorities need to be given special attention and helped to get ahead. But the reason is so we can all benefit from a more inclusive and stable society. It doesn't mean men are bad and it doesn't mean just being a woman gets you a free pass - you want your children educated by Betsy DeVos?
The first time I reported to a woman boss at work boy was I naive; what a learning experience that turned out to be. That woman was the most manipulative and greedy boss I ever had. So I learned we are people first, and then we are whatever sex we are. What is most important is the person we are.
And by the way, I'm part woman myself... my mother was a woman.
Best regards,
Michael Hugos
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Big fan of the letter, but need to take exception here.
I was a big Louis C.K. fan before the allegations of his sexual misconduct surfaced. He seemed like one of the good guys. In reality, he had been serially exploiting his position and privilege as a star in the comedy world in some sick sexual power game with his aspiring female colleagues. I think it's a pretty big leap from Google searches to executing a premeditated act of sexual violence in the real world.
"Me Too" isn't just about sex - it's about power. Powerful men (more often than not, WHITE men) are given deference and benefit of the doubt as a matter of course. They are the only segment of the population that is continually and liberally allowed to "fail up" (see: Trump). The presumption that Louis C.K. is entitled to pursue his career in spite of his conduct is precisely why "Me Too" needed/needs to happen. Nowhere in that presumption do we acknowledge the countless female victims whose careers and livelihoods were snuffed out by an act of sexual violence. Where is their second chance?
I think perpetrating a sexual assault should fundamentally alter your relationship to the business you're in. Should Louis C.K. be crucified? No. Are there things he could do to atone for his sin? Perhaps - maybe publicly donate to a sexual assault charity, do some volunteer work for said charity, use his resources to organize and produce a Netflix special with several promising up-and-coming female comedians - that's just off the top of my head. Is writing an apology letter, disappearing for 10 months then returning and pretending like none of it ever happened enough? Hell no.
Best,
Mike Campbell
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Hey!
This was one of the best things you have written. The fact is that everything is complicated and for some reason everyone looks for simple answers and absolutes and embraced them. I really try and live my faith out everyday but it took me a long time to get here and I duck it up more than I get it right because it is hard and COMPLICATED. I am both sad and grateful that practicing law has shown that everything is gray. We are all complex, broken sinners. Embrace the conversation. Learn about yourself and listen to the other side and move ahead.
Peace, and thanks.
mab
Michael Becker
St. Louis
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Pee Wee came back
"Heard any good jokes lately?"
The best one was:
"What was the most popular sandwich in Sarasota Florida in the 90's?
Rubens, hold the pickle."
Hans Shoop
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Good piece, Bob!
From the outset, I've held that Louis CK will be among the very few to have a chance at a comeback, not only because he apologized and owned his behaviour early on, but because his offense was really in a different "category" than the others.
Furthermore, the sands of time will eventually smooth it out to a sexual, behavioural, sociopathic "quirk": a trait we recognize can go hand in hand with artistic "genius". Cf. Pee Wee Herman.
Best,
Jason Steidman
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There's a lot of power in the pussy." Be prepared for a shit storm of offended and pissed off readers after that comment. Did you read the recent story of the Chicago band, The Orwells, breaking up shortly after abuse/rape allegations were presented via a Google Doc? It all happened in less than a week. I know you remember the Beatles albums being burned; That's where the world is now, not just the U.S. There is no discussion anymore, no need for proof or due process. As you said, it's black & white. And watch out if you even question the validity of the claims.
I should add, "They may very well be guilty and therefore should be held accountable". Otherwise I'll be called out as a rape apologist. ffs.
www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-orwells-breaking-up-abuse-allegations-0829-story,amp.html
docs.google.com/document/d/1c6eUBTbYREwUZSLsY8DK2FYGVul0dwSJDyEuv6wzjsg/mobilebasic
Wade Mosher
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The fact that the pussy-grabber in chief and the dick-wanking comic perv feel personally entitled to, and are publicly permitted to, move forward with their careers thinking "what's the big deal?" is precisely the problem. And with your condoning newsletter, so are you.
Jessica Risker
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I think this is more sinister than you've represented here. There are women comics who feared for their livelihoods because of their encounters with Louis CK. Who feared for their safety. Who were unable to just do their jobs. Who lost opportunities.
And while he apologized, that letter was self aggrandizing. I was disturbed when I read it. It was a letter written by a very skilled writer who has spent his career honing his ability to manipulate people's emotions. It wasn't an apology. It was a strategy.
I have friends who are females working or trying to make it in comedy. They're not trying to own the conversation. They're trying to do their jobs without having someone surprise them by sticking his dick in their face.
There are a lot of people out there working their asses off who are just as talented as Louis CK, who have never had his luck or his shots or his connections, and who have never stripped naked and masturbated in front of people who weren't asking for it. Fuck him, let them have a shot instead.
Dean Temple
ps: I love your newsletter, I'd never unsubscribe.
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Bob your bold I'll give you that. Your saying what a lot of men are thinking but won't say publicly. That it can't just be a one way conversation, the Asia Argento situation proves that, no one is perfect or beyond reproach. But I applaud you for saying it and your going to get a lot of flack but your right.
Sexual misconduct of any type is wrong but those who offend must be given a chance to own up to it, change and work again. We as a society have a chance to push this conversation about #MeToo in a positive direction but not if one side of the equation is not allowed to speak.
Doug Gillis
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"if anything I'm waiting for a clear signal before I take action, this whole #MeToo thing has me reevaluating my behavior, am I the only man in America who's a wimp?"
Nope, #Metoo
And frankly I'm waiting for women to get the message that it's their turn to start making passes. Maybe it'll produce less results, maybe more, but then it will always be a sure thing and I won't have to worry about my reputation or career.
Mark Dorfman
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Worth remembering that before C.K. admitted it - he denied it for years. It was an open secret within the industry and even among comedy fans. He called those women liars and they lost opportunities. He's not a mensch. He's a rich old bastard who doesn't care about the people he hurt. Maybe that's why so many women aren't ready to listen to him tell more jokes about jerking off yet...
- Hobbes
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Spot on.
Louis C.K. will be judged in the court of public opinion next time he self-promotes a tour again.
Guess what? He's going to clean with his on sales even faster than before. His supporters will attend and, next time around, so will his detractors.
Brian Rucker
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Imagine you work at a corporation where a top ranking executive repeatedly lures bottom rung workers into his office, locks the door and masturbates in front of him. Eventually enough workers get up enough courage to lodge complaints and he's asked to leave. On his way out he offers a tone-deaf apology ('gee, I thought everyone stayed to watch because they liked it, not because I locked them in and had all the power...'). A few months later you show up for work and there he is in his office again, acting like everything is normal. How would you react?
If Louis CK is an independent contractor, as you say, then maybe instead of returning to the scene of the crime unannounced he should consider going on tour, or filming another comedy special to sell it online. His fans can support him, and everyone else can decide for themselves if they want to be exposed to him or not.
Alex Ganetakos
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The most telling thing you said, I think, was: "That's right, in most marriages, the women wear the pants". Hmm. Not in my universe. In my experience, men who operate from that belief system have been deeply wounded by a female, probably their mother. They project it forward everywhere they go, and either are a "wimp" (your word) or an abuser. I used to choose abusers. However, there is a middle ground and that is where the soul's healing work is, for both genders.
I agree that the #metoo movement is confused. Punishment is unfortunately a tool of the patriarchy. Nothing much changes with punishment, except that, as you say, people get more angry. If not punishment, what? How do we grow out of this false paradigm?
I don't really give a shit about Louis C.K.. I think he's funny. But knowing that he masturbates at women and into potted plants makes me laugh less hard. Same deal with my music icons. What I listen to gets narrower and narrower. The frequencies I like the best washing over me and into me, and I have a choice, are those emanating from healthy, balanced humans. My radar is pretty keen now that I'm 60 and I've been raped, silenced, humiliated and marginalized. The folks I work with and listen to are kind, wise and helpful.
You are what you eat.
Kristina Stykos
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That was one of your electric ones .. I always flag and keep them so I can read them again.
Gregory Gray
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I'm sorry Bob. This post was poorly conceived and poorly delivered.
No, I won't unsubscribe but I was shocked to see you write that this is "the truth" or that men who respect women are "wimps".
... I just read it again. Every paragraph is a disaster.
Your last post was about a Canadian. You do realize that just a few months ago a man drove his car into crowds of people in Toronto because he didn't get the sex he "deserved" from women? It's terrifying to think that women are losing this war.
"Everyone has their quirks" ... Jesus Christ Bob.
Louis Doesn't need to come back. I'd rather see Kate McKinnon.
If you post my reply please do not include my name or my email.
I'm sure (I hope) that you get responses more eloquent than mine. I hope you read them
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It's men who have alienated 50% of the population, for centuries, and now they are paying the price. Truth hurts, doesn't it? That's why you're up in arms about defending an admitted sexual assaulter. Because you want men to be forgiven. But it's not up to you to decide that. Also interesting is your perspective on marriage, that women "wear the pants". Is that what you call equality? Are men "wimps" when they allow women to have a voice? Your view is dying out. It doesn't work anymore. Admit defeat.
Oh, and isn't the Louis CK thing a clear sign of the audience speaking? Fascinating that you tell everyone else to move on, and you're stuck in the past.
Lizabeth Kennedy Bradley
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"at least he told the truth, isn't that worth something?" - actually for about 15 years, Louis did not tell the truth. He denied the allegations and wrote them off as gossip. That's the part that gets to me, not the sexual action itself, the lying about it until it was in The NY Times.
Dan Swain
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I love your blog, and no I won't unsubscribe if you tell the truth. But aren't you missing a simple truth here: 90% of men (maybe more, I don't know, but it certainly includes me) have never forced themselves on a woman in any way. So they have no interest in #MeToo as it simply doesn't apply to them, any more than being interested in trying to get into the head of a thief or murderer. I will never do either, so I am wasting my valuable time trying to understand what goes through the mind of someone who would commit those crimes. Unless I am a criminologist of course, in which case I am paid to [try to] understand it.
Just a thought!
Keep up the good work!
Ian Penman
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That's was some very powerful stuff Bob! I'm proud that you have the courage to speak out on your platform and represent the other 50% of our population, most of whom also want to help in creating a better, more balanced environment.
Cheers
Balwant
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C.K. has done nothing to make amends. He didn't even really apologize. What has he done to help the women he abused? Or anyone? He can try to make a living, but it's very telling to me that he assumed he could still use his pull to grab some stage time, thinking nothing of whether his surprise appearance might ruin some patrons' night. If I go see a comedy show, I damn well want the choice beforehand of seeing an abuser or not. Fuck this arrogant, unlearning prick.
Christopher Allen
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Another symptom of our PC culture. I'm a millennial woman and although I don't condone his actions I miss his talent. He's one of my favorite comedians and the world is missing out by blackballing him for a mistake he obviously regrets.
Jasmine Crowe
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Wise words
But risk is that if that narrative allows Louis CK forgiveness, then Agent Orange should get the same .. at least that's what will come from the echo chamber of false equivalence
Vijay Thakur
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I feel that the problem with your argument is that you feel that Louis C.K. has apologized and yet he never has. Perhaps people see what they want. You see an apology and yet one is never stated.
Please cite:
www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/arts/television/louis-ck-statement.html
If I a remiss, please let me and your audience know where he actually formally apologized.
Yes, he admitted his inappropriate behavior and abuse of power. Yes, he regretted it. He even acknowledged that he ruined lives and careers of women. And yet he showed no sorrow and never asked for their forgiveness. I believe that without remorse, one cannot ask for redemption.
And I deeply believe in redemption. However, one needs to take all of the steps to accomplish it.
Christy Spitzer Thornton
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None of these men are owed anything. Certainly not a career. It will play out based on that. Do they draw audiences? That's the only analytic that has an impact in the end.
Sebastian 6
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Louis CK is a "Mensch?" What a tone deaf take, Bob.
Richard Schwartz
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Louis C. K. sure. But Al Franken…..we miss you Al.
WAYNE R. HALPER, Esq.
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Wow. Is all I can say.
Very disappointing. You are fundamentally missing the point and it's a big FAIL.
Awwww, men are scared 'right now'? Poor men. Do you know that women are scared all of their lives until they die? Even if a woman hasn't been actually assaulted, the culture of pornography and objectification fills females with terror from tiny ages (in response to which we develop various coping mechanisms, from 'strident' feminism to adult film acting, nude selfies, and everything in between.). We are prey. You show yourself as the old-fashioned, bygone-era white male that you are.
'Just' whipping his dick out? You need to brush up. I'm really disappointed in this. It's SO reactionary of you just because you are a fan of a sexual predator, albeit a funny and insightful one.
Also, SO many inaccurate generalizations here, re: men and women and lesbians. Very, very surprising coming from you.
I expect to see your own response to this one, wherein you apologize and explain the myriad errors in this latest missive.
Hopefully some day someone will hold you captive in a room and jack off in front of your face, and then you will receive the priceless gift of PERSPECTIVE.
If you can't begin to imagine why Louis C.K. would need victims in order to achieve sexual gratification, then you certainly cannot make a determination as to whether his reputation should be reinstated, thereby potentially exposing other victims to his pathology. His perverted predation is based on his power. And now he has none. Which seems to me a very effective means to limit his abuse opportunities.
Oh-- and one more little thing you've completely failed to understand. The #metoo movement isn't a women's movement. It's a movement for anyone who has been assaulted within a culture which permits such an assault. This includes men, women, and children.
Bummer. And also FUCK. YOU.
(But I'm not unsubscribing. I would advise you stay away from this topic in future as you simply don't have the credentials to address it.)
Sorry I had to wear the pants. I will put my pretty dress back on now.
Julie Edwards
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Hi Bob,
I'm not sure I understand the correlation between your president and Louis C.K. Who is making any comparison? It might just be your perspective that is lost.
Louis C.K. was not prevented from taking the stage. I assume he was able to contact the Comedy Cellar and perform. Simple. Unlike the female comedians who faced backlash and career damage because he wanted to jerk off in front of them and they dared to speak about it.
Can you explain your point about his being an individual rather than a corporation? What sense does that make? It should be pointed out that Mr. C.K.'s team, namely Dave Becky did not want at least 2 of the female comedians speaking about the time Louis C.K. needed to drop his load on his belly in front of them. It was made clear to them that there would be career repercussions should they continue to do so. So he is not really an individual is he? Thankfully, he isn't a publicly traded corporation which regularly hide this behaviour behind non-disclosure agreements.
As for Mr. C.K.'s apology, are we giving out prizes for telling the truth after years of denials? It took years and 5 women coming forward to finally force him to admit he was lying. The women took a load of shit because as Louis C.K. said "I have issues.".
I think you will find that plenty of men such as yourself have indeed weighed in on Louis C.K.'s recent performance. It is my great hope you hear from plenty of women. Thank you for letting me know that the #MeToo movement has had little or no impact on the male conversation and is forcing it underground. By underground do you mean that these men won't feel safe and protected being varying degrees of douchebags? That would be great. Deep down I know you realize women will win the war because we are not afraid to let you know what we think and ultimately will rewrite the rules. It's called #MeToo for what should be an obvious reason, talk to some ladies in your life.
Peace & Love, Peace & Love & Fuck off a bit
Allison Metcalfe
From Canada
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I'm disgusted by your reaction to this.
The women who spoke up about their experience with Louis CK have had their careers and lives destroyed, they were threatened and harassed to the point of having to delete all of their social media accts. It's the same old story: the victims are blamed and vilified while the abuser gets to come back to a cheering audience whenever he pleases.
You are not a woman, and you will never know what it feels like to walk down the street and be leered at or followed or threatened sexually. Or what it's like to be coerced into something because you're terrified of how a powerful/threatening man will react if you say no. A fetish is only a fetish if the other person is a 100% willing and ENTHUSIASTIC participant. ANYTHING ELSE IS SEXUAL ASSAULT. The worst part about this is Louis CK's entire brand of comedy revolves around him being a "woke" white man who understands his privilege and pokes fun at people who don't. He made $$ off of women who thought he was an ally (including myself).
When it comes to sexual encounters, it's pretty simple: does the person you're with seem hesitant? Does she/he seem uncomfortable? Is there an uneven power dynamic you should take into account? DON'T DO IT. Any man with a shred of morality/respect towards women understands this line and will never cross it. I think (hope) you're a man who understand this. So please don't defend a man who doesn't. And please listen to what women have to say about this, and understand it's not your opinion that matters in this conversation.
-A woman & ex-Louis CK fan
PS Please do not include my e-mail address if you choose to publish this.
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OK, I stopped reading here: "Sure, having women on boards is a good step, but when you prevent a man from pursuing his livelihood, you end up with a very angry man, because males' self-image is based on their work."
You evidently think that women aren't the same way. Didn't you read all of those emails from women who've been abused in the music business? Not all women want to be defined as a wife and mother, now that we have choices. For those of use who choose otherwise, you don't think plenty of us base our self image on our work? Or, even for those women who have children and work to support them, you don't think their self image is based on their work and their ability to provide for their family?
AND....
You think tons of women aren't angry about having been prevented from pursuing our livelihoods? Never mind the female comedians that Louis C.K. and his people sabotaged. How about all the women who have been denied the success they could've had in the corporate world (or pretty much any other job) by sexist men? You think we're not angry? But I guess that doesn't matter, right? Ooh, men are ANGRY, watch out they might deny us a promotion or chase us around the desk or rape us or beat us or vote for Donald Trump or shoot up the world!! Oh wait, they've been doing that. FUCK IT!!
I'm disappointed in you Bob. Do better.
Amy Primeaux
Houston, TX
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I have been reading your words for a year now, and at the end of each letter I weigh my options on sharing mine. Heads up, I'm doing it this time.
I get what you're saying - I really think I do. Our president sits on his golden throne free of consequence, despite the wrath that women and the media have rained on him. With good reason, by the way, but it is totally odd that the head honcho continues to rule the country unscathed. It's absolute bullshit. And meanwhile, he still denies all allegations. Okay. Then you have a character like this Louis C.K. guy, who, after rumors run free, admits to violating a handful of women. Off the air, disrespected, and now he thinks he's ready to come back to show biz.
So, should the truth set Louis C.K. free? I see what you're after - he confessed and repented (maybe) and went away to reflect. Maybe he just went home to play with his dick while the dust settled. This time in front of magazines and television sets instead of live, breathing, autonomous human beings. Which truth are you concerned with here? Because, if you mean that this white, wealthy, male star gets less of a "life sentence" for being part good guy - solely by admitting his heinous behavior - then no, I don't think the truth matters much here. Not for Louis C.K.. Who does the truth matter for? The women who were sexually violated, and continue to live with that feeling of understanding how worthless they are. Because a man has that much control. Who else does the truth matter for? Every other woman who's predator is NOT on television, whose cases don't matter because they'll never see the light of day. Keeping Louis C.K. OUT means justice for women who never get theirs. Louis C.K. acted at the expense of women, why are we protecting him when it's the women who keep their wounds?
#MeToo is about visibility, not your feelings. It's proof that women EXIST and are hurt - everywhere. Proof that men do as they please and have never needed to care about the consequences. By pardoning Louis C.K., he becomes just another guy who got away with it. No means no. We fucking mean it.
I'll leave you with the same precursor you left me with. You don't get to call yourself a "more liberal than democrats" woke white dude and pretend to back track on all the things you just admitted to. Yeah, we need to call men in. Absolutely. If you want to be part of it, then actually be part of the progress. Say this behavior is not okay and we won't tolerate it. Are men really so afraid of women that they can't handle the truth that their brothers have done evil things? That they have done evil things? How about men calling men out? Why the hell is it just on women to do the work here? Men need no invitation. They have ALWAYS been invited to the party. What will you do with your invite? I mean jeez, women can't be worse than men. They're killing us, literally. And we still wake up every morning ready to dance. How about a little chutzpah.
Thoughtfully,
Dani Pinkus
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Interesting!
I am so down with your commentary about CK comeback or not…
And as a women that is NOT really down with the double standards of the #metoo movement or whatever it is/was…
Here is the problem as I see it and lived it. When these women showed up thirty years later to tattle on all the big bad men, but did not "tattle" or say "no" back in the day when it would have had an impact and protected others women, but instead choose not to do so, so they could get that great job, become famous actor, or climbed the corporate ladders. They can't really call "victim" now. So, the power of the pussy is complex, two-sided if you will, the power of the pussy got them where they wanted to go back-in-the-day and then thirty years later, the power of the pussy gathered in great numbers, under the guise of protecting others, and took down the big bad men. I kind of smell a double standard here!
I and several of my friends living the Hollywood experience in the eighties, good looking chicks working in many different aspects of the biz, actors, crew members, models, etc...we all have a thousand #metoo stories to tell, but don't, because we made the choice to NOT sleep, suck, or fuck the big bad boys back in the day, instead we slapped them on the nose and moved on, sure some of us were penalized but mostly we were not… The truth is the #metooers did have a choice not be a victim and participate in sexiest behaviors, but some of them were seduced by the allure of success and fame and used the power of the pussy to grab it!
Not all, of course, and yes, some have horrific sad rape stories, different deal, but in general if you were willing to stand up for women rights, respect yourself, not be used, or go to the "casting couch", you did not have to go there. Albeit, scarier if you choose not to, and yes, if they believed their whole careers were based on pleasing that sexiest powerful man, it was rolling-the-dice for sure to say no to them. And for those that didn't say no, I'm judging them at all, hell, it was the truth and choices we faced from those times…
But I was there, and a lot of us did choose to roll- the-dice and not play the stupid game! Imagine if the first 10 women back in the day all told Harvey to go fuck himself, HUH, that would have been some truly Powerful Pussy!
So, back to CK, his whipping-his-dick-out fettish, so so so grosses me out, but I get it, yes, he did apologize, but sadly that image of his peep-show-jerk-off sessions are burned into our brains. We can't unsee him as his fettish now. I don't think it's a power of the pussy thing or guys with no voice thing... I think guys are kind of embarrassed and truth be told, you guys are in general, as much as we love you, you are kind of gross and pervy. LOL I think this is more of a CK Elephant in the room thing, guys can be kind of weird and CK showed everybody just how weird it can get…
Boys are embarrassed and girls are just grossed out, that simple. That's why we have such healthy and successful porn industry, it's their job to get paid well to deal with all those kind of crazy elephants!
Sandra Vaughan
Exec Producer
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It should be more about the victims then the accused. When the women who come forward are still receiving death treats, accused of bringing it on themselves, then it's too soon.
I don't think men are scared of women, but women have always been scared of men. The narrative has always been male, and CK thinks he still can control it. That's the trouble. The people in the audience didn't know he was going to be there and neither did the club owner. He force himself on them and didn't address the elephant in the room. He wants it to go back the way it was, and that's not possible.
I am angry about this. I like CK, but there's a curtain amount of atoning that need to happen before I can become okay with him gain. When you have a pussy grabber in chief and a long list of powerful men who spent years abusing women, now is not the time for a come back even if you think it's "not that bad." Compared to what? Even Senator Franken, who I love as well, stepped down for the greater good. Because i believe he cares about women and women issue. Which is kind of the point.
Those who can be redeemed will be, but this isn't about them, it's about the victims. I do not care about the reputations of the accused. If CK come back from this, then more power is to him, but I don't give a fuck about him or any of these men's precious reputations anymore. I want to make sure these women who have made victims are taken care of and that they can and need to be able to speak up and out about it. This isn't something that's going back into the shame closet, because men don't want to feel bad about what other men are doing.
Bonnie Whitmore
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The dam is getting ready to burst. The levees are going to fail and we're all just standing around sticking our fingers into the holes and yelling at each other about which hole is leaking the fastest...or ignoring the dam, ignoring the trickles and just making sure our insurance is paid up and our favourite stuff is on the high shelf. What's worse is that while we're jabbing stuff in the cracks, there are people standing in front of us yelling that dams don't exist and that water is essential for life. There aren't even rules to reality anymore, so trying to establish rules for timelines or comebacks seems irrelevant.
I was in high school/university in the 90s. You know who the guys grew up listening to, comedy album-wise? Andrew Dice Clay. Eddie Murphy. And I had to hear that damn Adam Sandler album everywhere I went. I couldn't win by turning it off or pretending I couldn't hear. I was too "sensitive" and if I got offended or emotional, I would lose my "one of the boys" card. But, I could get to the stereo first and fight back with Ani DiFranco. With Lilith Fair. With Jagged Little Pill. With Sinead O'Connor. And through their art, I figured out that there were other ways to win.
(An aside...if anyone want to see what allyship can look like, pull up the video of Sinead performing for Dylan's 50th...and watch Kris Kristofferson as she's booed off the stage. Now pause and reflect on the fact that she was right and nobody would listen...this is why women stay quiet...Neil Young has been doing the same thing for decades and people either agree or they don't...but they don't send him letters calling him crazy and/or hoping for his suicide or gang rape, torture or murder.)
I'm not mad at Louis...but I'm still disappointed, because he was supposed to be on our side. Self awareness is the X factor in timelines. Trump is still pretending the Access Hollywood tape is somehow fake. Clinton still won't own his part in unraveling the concept of "truth". And if O'Reilly's sexual harassment is but one piece of all that he should be punished for. And honestly, watching everyone jab at Asia Argento is like watching the Martha Stewart's trial all over again. Watching people chant 'lock her up' at Trump rallies is disturbing on so many levels, it's hard to pick one. So yes...to answer your question, I think we've lost perspective.
Ultimately though, this does come down to two types of people...but it's not good/evil, blue/red or male/female or white/not-white...it's builders and destroyers. There are those who want to build and those who want to destroy what someone else has built. And Trump has always been a Destroyer wearing a cheap rubber Builder's mask.
Want to be a rock star? Do you bitch about the industry and its many injustices, or do adjust your paradigm of what the industry looks like? If you're Ani Di Franco, incidentally, you find an old warehouse in Buffalo and make your own label and write songs about the reasons you're in Buffalo. If you're Sarah McLaughlin, you put together your own tour so that no one is vying to be a "token" female. If you're Jack White and you want to live in the Country Music Capital, you find people who match your aesthetic and you redefine Nashville.
When you put your faith in the art, rather than the system, it won't matter what you have or where you live or who you know. If you're a woman in comedy, you can walk away from the sexism, or just quietly change it. Tina Fey watched, analyzed, and ultimately built a new dynamic. Sam Bee did the same if her corner. Amy Poehler's been building new paths with every step of her career. And, whether or not it fits the narrative of the moment, Louis and Aziz Ansari did the same thing, and they'll rebuild, because that's what builders do.
It sucks when people you hold in esteem let you down. One's got to be so careful when choosing heroes. I choose Tina Fey. I choose Neil Young. I choose David Lynch. I choose Sinead O'Connor. I choose Pauline Gorski (my high school English and History teacher). I choose Margaret Atwood. I choose Kurt Vonnegut. I choose my friend Tanya Bruce, who quit her career to devote her life to social and environmental activism. Mostly though, I choose Robert Pirsig, because he dedicated his life to the pursuit and understanding of Quality.
Heather
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I don't think the furor over Louis CK's return is about 'hetero male is tormentor, hetero female is victim'. It's dangerous and stupid (and a complete falsehood) to reduce all men to neanderthal brutes who can't control themselves, just as it's dangerous and stupid to reduce all women to hysterical bitches out for blood. It's about power. It's what we've seen ad nauseam in the Catholic Church, in the military, in government, in other institutions. Gender is but a symptom.
Person A gets abused by Person B, in a position of power and authority
Person A attempts to speak up, and the institution retaliates: Person A is called a liar, mentally ill, an attention seeker, a gold digger, is harassed and character assassinated, most likely loses their job and/or opportunities, is shunned by institution and society
Person A's attempts to speak up encourages other victims to come forward
IF (and that's a big if) there is enough of a groundswell of victims, and the evidence is overwhelming, Person B in power may step down, be moved to another location, "take a break", go into hiding (but rarely faces prosecution)
After a certain amount of time (dictated by institution), Person B reclaims position of power
Cycle continues, nothing changes
Clare M
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In Defense of Jackson Browne:
Immediately after the Browne/Hannah incident, I was recording with a highly respected engineer who frequently worked with Browne at his Santa Monica studio.
Here is the story that engineer told about the Browne/Hannah incident...
He and Jackson Browne were working in the studio when a neighbor of Browne's called the studio and told and Browne that someone was in Browne's home literally destroying his possessions.
Mr. Brown left the studio and went home to find Hannah destroying his personal possessions with a Louisville slugger baseball bat.
Upon entering his own home she threatened him with the bat. In his effort to protect himself and his possessions, he inadvertently bruised her arm. I have no reason to disbelieve this story as recounted to me by the recording engineer.
Like you, I have never forced myself on a woman - we are not wimps, we are honorable.
And if I'm not mistaken, upon graduation from high school, Ms. Hannah stated in her yearbook that her goal was to "...meet Jackson Browne..."
...well, well, well...
Peace and Love,
Paul ILL
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Where to begin?
Men are afraid?? How about we expect men to have the courage to step up to the conversation and help create positive change instead of everyone having to pander to their comfort level all the time.
And what the eff do lesbians speaking up about Louis CK have to do with anything?? "Heterosexual people taking their cues from gay people" i laughed out loud - possibly the most stupid and irrelevant thing I've read from you.
Also "just ask any male when they lose their job, they run out of cash and their wives divorce them"????
Bob it's not 1970 anymore. We make our own damn money now.
Also, you've twice in this email accused anyone unsubscribing of doing so because you're speaking the truth, and they can't handle it.
Actually Bob, women know the truth. They know exactly how this bullshit goes. They have forever known. You're only just becoming aware of the challenges we all face in changing it. You're not speaking the truth at all - you're ranting like an old guy who has no clue and no real intention of changing anything because it might dilute the tiny bit of power he retains. You're re using the tired old excuse that if women challenge you, they'll offend you, and you'll tune out and refuse to engage. That's the same old stroppy bullshit as always... the same kid who can't win the game so he takes the ball and leaves. Total bullshit.
Larissa Cooke
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*PLEASE DO NOT SHARE MY NAME PUBLICLY*
Hi Bob,
Long time reader and a big fan, so it pains me to have to write this. This is the only time I have ever disagreed with what you've said regarding the #MeToo movement. And I think it's actually so off base that it makes me sick to read it. For as much good as you do for the industry and for the advocate role you've played during this difficult time for women, your commentary is extremely disturbing and, frankly, out of turn. I have now unsubscribed to your newsletter but still think you should have a read below...
In response to your question of, "do only women get to set the rules for when #MeToo perps can re-enter the public space?" My answer is YES. Nobody gets to have fun anymore because the bad apples have spoiled the fun for everyone. It's like when a few bad students misbehave and the class field trip gets cancelled (obviously more serious than this). Nobody gets to have their privilege back because they abused it. A consequence for bad behaviour...
For the betterment of society as a whole, perhaps a few predatory men may need to be made an 'example of '. Women are made an 'example of ' every day.
Why can't we allow men to suffer the REAL CONSEQUENCES of their predatory actions against women? Sure, people go to jail when committing violent crimes, but what about someone who harasses, like Louis C.K.? What he's done is psycholocially damaging and the victims will suffer incalculable pain. As a woman in the music business I have been harassed, abused and systematically underpaid. Someone like Louis C.K. who is a privileged white male will always have the upper hand and has likely spent his exile in suspected financial comfort. I did not have that luxury when my boss harassed me repeatedly. Instead, I was fired after making an official complaint to HR.
What about the women who were trying to do their jobs only to have a Louis C.K. expose himself at work? Should we continue to compromise ourselves so another man can succeed while we suffer, often in silence? What about the victims who deal with the aftermath for the rest of their lives? I wish I only had to deal with the aftermath of my harassment for 9 months. I am a lucky woman to not have been raped or physically abused, but I can't say the same for other women I encounter.
Perhaps a real consequence like losing your earning power and respect might help change our toxic culture. Maybe this will help teach men that there are tangible consequences for their behaviour. I want to believe there is a path to redemption, but surely it would take longer than 9 months to walk down that road.
It's a shame to lose your industry wisdom, but I'm sorry Bob, you really put your foot in it. I can't support someone who doesn't see beyond man's pay check. And that statement about women divorcing men when they lose their income is reductive and, yet again, makes women out to be the problem.
It breaks my heart to see you give a pass to these "not-so-vicious" predators. A predator is a predator - power imbalance is power imbalance.
Sad to no longer get your newsletter, Bob. Not sad to take a stand for what's right.
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Bob, I gotta disagree with you here. You're acting like Louis walked through the desert in chains as penance for his wrongdoings.
Let's be real about what happened - Louis got dragged down with Harvey Weinstein and others, people got pissed, his brand became a PR nightmare for just about everyone who worked with him in any capacity, and so they ditched him. True, it's better that he owned up to his actions rather than denied them or made some lukewarm, nolo contendere statement, but women control the dialogue here, and there aren't even close to as many women welcoming him in open arms as there are men.
If your response to women being disproportionately outraged at this story compared to men is to pontificate on how much punishment is enough before an ostracized celebrity can pick up where they left off, you're missing the point.
Search "Louis CK" on Twitter, and look at all the positive comments about him. Not a lot of them are coming from women. The women that are speaking out against him are so impassioned by it because this is a fight they have to actively participate in. Not saying that men can't be victims either, but most of us don't have to worry about someone with power masturbating in front of us.
When women are still upset at Louis CK, you should be asking what more can be done for him to hold himself accountable in a way that reassures people he's a better person going forward. Instead, you're asking how the timetable for his career should be set and when he's able to start doing comedy again.
Garrett Gravley
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Great post. As usual, you raise issues that require thought and discussion rather than social media sniping and reactive "opinion".
At the core, I think there are two issues here:
1. Growth as a human. We all grow and change. We evolve. Ideally, we evolve towards a "better" self. It's why forgiveness is a key principle of Christianity (although, in my experience too many Christians are old Testament judgmental and not too good with New Testament forgiveness). When we say "OK, you're truly sorry, you've learned something", we often give others another chance to evolve. Today, with social media, forgiveness seems to have disappeared in place of the pile on.
Now, I'm not saying that egregious sexual behavior is OK. It isn't. But it doesn't have to go on forever. It can end and the person can grow into a "better" them.
Which leads me to point 2.
2. Self-awareness and therapy. If you're masturbating in front of "strangers", you must know that something's wrong. If you grab their crotches - same thing. And, if you rape them, even more so. You know it's not OK. At the moment someone knows something is not OK and is going to hurt them and/or others, why don't they try to get help? Go to a therapist? Try to change the behavior?
Two answers.
First - mental health issues are poorly funded in America and are often seen as weakness rather than the psychological and physiological events they are. Thank the Republicans and Trump for making it worse. And, thank shoot-them-up video games and the violence locked into our entertainment. Look at the shooters who MURDER people in schools, parking lots, bedrooms etc. So many are mentally ill. But the stigma and lack of resources means this cycle will continue as long as tax cuts for the rich are more important than care for those who need it.
Second - People don't change their behavior unless it stops working for them. This is a universal truth. In other words - unless they get caught or the punishing consequences for the behavior overweigh the "rewards" they get for their behavior, they aren't likely to change. Unless they are part of a rare group who focus on their own evolution.
So, it's almost like they have to get caught in order to change - because for much of America, self-awareness is a big negative. They'd rather fight, shoot, do opioids, or ride the slipstream of a bully like Trump than look into themselves. I won't even get into the role of all religions in preventing true self-awareness.
Which leads to Louis CK. He said he did it. He's sorry. If he can grow and evolve, let that be a win for humanity. He's not a denying predator like Weinstein or so many others.
The #metoo movement is a fair reaction to the crap that women have had to endure (and still do) for centuries. But, let's celebrate those (mostly men but some women too) who are sorry, who learn enough about themselves to change their behavior, and can share that in their art, their conversations, or even their changed behavior.
This idea has been stomped on since Reagan ramped up intolerance and it's why we don't fund therapy and mental health, why the jails are too full, and people are more angry than supportive of each other as human beings.
John Parikhal
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I enjoy your commentary and feel stirred by many of the topics and controversies you showcase here. I've always resisted the urge to respond because the conversation between you and your audience is public and I remain private. For years, I've been stalked, threatened, and harassed. I stay as hidden and invisible as possible hoping to be forgotten by my tormentor. I will save the rest of my sad story as no one really cares.
You are interested in bringing men and women, homosexuals and heterosexuals to the table, but it's too soon. Women and homosexuals don't have the power you imagine. I could accuse my boss of sexual harassment, damage their reputation and career, but no one cares that a worm of a man creates fake social media profiles of me telling strangers where I live and to approach me for sex. I know they don't care because I've been living this nightmare for 8 years. I can't come to the table as a frightened ghost and negotiate for Louis C.K. To have his career back. I'm nobody, financially devastated, professionally crippled, emotionally fragile, and even physically affected.
I've learned to be grateful for what I still have. Family, some close friends, a modest job where I can work safely from home, my guitar, and a hero of an attorney that helps where he can. I'm not asking for my life back because it's a waste of breath. I'm grateful that I only take 1 antidepressant now and no longer need weekly therapy to escape the overwhelming fear and emotional pain. You and Louis C.K. can take care of yourselves. You are not going to make the world safe for me so don't bother me with the plight of a wealthy comedian who wants back in the game.
One more thing while I'm spilling my guts... Being a woman in the world is a dangerous thing. From adolescence on, we are groped and catcalled by strangers that don't respect our autonomy and belittle our discomfort with it. I can't come to the table as an equal and discuss Louis because I'm just grateful to be alive.
Peace,
(please do not publish my name for the above reasons)
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Maybe you should have slept on this one and re-evaluated in the morning. A few good points are overshadowed by tone-deaf comments like this:
"I take action, this whole #MeToo thing has me reevaluating my behavior, am I the only man in America who's a wimp?"
Leave the comedy to the comedians, banished or otherwise. This joke infers that by not assaulting a woman you are inferior, it shades how a woman who has been attacked (1 in 3 of us all) reads the rest.
"And I'm not saying everything the women are saying isn't true, that they haven't gotten the short end of the stick, that they haven't been sexually abused and held down. Now what?"
This isn't "everything" women are saying about ourselves. Part of what some of us are saying is that, like with the rise of anti-Semitism, the Cheeto-toddler in the White House has emboldened unacceptable behavior. Sending it underground is at least men acknowledging these acts are shameful.
"Sure, having women on boards is a good step, but when you prevent a man from pursuing his livelihood, you end up with a very angry man, because males' self-image is based on their work."
This really feels like white people complaining about their rights. If you stop thinking of Louis and apply this to sexual misconduct, aren't you cringing? God forbid we stop considering the feelings and mental well being of a sexual attacker!
"There's a lot of power in the pussy.
Oh, did that offend you? Then why were you so proud to wear the pussy hat to Washington?"
Completely not offended by the power of the pussy. But I think you are. Women have the power behind the scenes. Behind every great man there's a great woman, huh? Oh joy. Thank you for affirming our second class passage.
Unfortunately, this, is the problem. Men are invited to the conversation. They are already at the fucking table. The problem is, as evidenced here, they still don't have a clue to what we are saying.
Jen Robinson
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"Hey! Are you nuts?" ~ that's called gaslighting. You're not nuts, Bob but I do think it's fair to say that in the case of Luis CK, men should step in and ask the women & men - since you asked- working ( yes, WORKING) with him if they would feel, uh, a weirded out by him whipping his dick out, again while at work. Not just Louis CK's Work, but the women & men WORKING with him. What about their livelihood?
History lesson: in primitive times, men overpowered women because they are physically stronger. Later they learned to use money & fame to get "more pussy."
So often I wish I was raised Jewish so that I could have married a nice Jewish boy. But you know what I did? I married, not one, but two abusive men.... I divorced them too when I learned to stop being a punching bag. I took responsibility for my individual actions and both times, left with nothing, except my daughters, of course, because I was too afraid of them to stand up to them.
So, no, women don't always wear the pants in the house.... and haven't for all of History (and that's why that word begins with HIS).
I'm not a lesbian or a feminist and I wouldn't take my shirt off in protest or wear an endearing hat, but I hear the feminists asking the same question as you: Where are the men? Why aren't they standing alongside women & saying, "If you whip out your dick at my daughter's/wife's/mother's work in front of them, you get to leave this place of employment - Until the end of time."
It's not funny.
It's not cute.
It's harrassmen.
Love ya ~ Deb
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The world is ending Bob.
How can people put in the same fucking boat a man who has raped someone and a comedian who has masturbated in front of other human beings?
Has everybody just lost the plot?
What in the name of Dio (the Guitarrist of course) is going on over your side of the pond?
Sure, masturbating in front of women who might not want to see it ain't exactly normal behaviour. But does it hurt the viewer in the same way that a woman might suffer when sexually harassed or even worse penetrated? The whole thing is an offence to human intelligence (mine for sure).
We've become too sensitive about everything. We're basically getting used to escalating everything, and the problem is that when we do, people lose the plot.
It's a bit like witch hunting in the medieval times which turned into an excuse to burn random poor women for no real reason. Difference is that back then most people couldn't read write or understand things.. You'd think today they would. Wrong.
I have huge respect for women, I am married with a kid coming. I am a fighter for equality.
But let me ask you a question: What would have happened if Ali Wong had been spotted masturbating herself in front of men? (And I am choosing Wong just because she is a female comedian and speaks openly about sex).
All you need to do is change it the other way round to realise how stupid the whole thing is.
And worst of all: news and media get so wound up with a single bit of news they forget about everything else. Here in Italy all they've been talking about in the news for 2 weeks is the Morandi bridge falling in Genoa and the immigrants crisis. Two terrible things that need attention, sure, but there is so much more to discuss out there! SO much more good and bad news to be aware of.
Information has lost its sense, just like politics. It should be about the community. About helping and working for a better common future. Instead we've reached the point where we're living in a soap opera and everybody is waiting to have their emotions triggered with a big "woah" or "ooh" so they can talk about the same stupid news for months instead of looking at the big picture.
I begin to wonder if deciding to have a baby with my wife was so wise after all. The beautiful little soul that is about to pop out in this world perhaps deserved better.
Marco Spiezia
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Bob, I have no idea where you are coming from here. You are talking about a guy in a huge position of power who locked women in a room and beat off in front of them. What if that was your mom, your sister, your wife or your daughter or granddaughter?
Also, men have had all of the seats at the table for a very long time! WHAT MAN GETS TURNED AWAY FROM THE TABLE? Men have always been the gatekeepers of the room where it happens - where do you think they were?
Finally, I wholeheartedly recommend you do some actual research on this subject. I won't do it for you, but you should think about researching the rates of sexual abuse in minority, Native American, and immigrant communities. You should look into the way sexual abuse was handled at your bullshit colleges back when you were there. Have you ever even asked any of your former classmates what kind of bullshit rich skiing assholes like you put them through?
Finally, part two - please take your petulant, bullying, unsubscribe challenge and stick it up your ass. That's what I expect a jackass to say - especially one who has the ability to prove he knows nothing about a subject and then asks everyone to go away if they don't agree.
I eagerly await you backtracking on this insane bullshit you've spewed tonight. It's not eyeballs or relevancy you should worry about losing - it's respect. You blew a lot of your social capital tonight, and I will eagerly watch you try to claw your way back from this one.
I'm still astounded by your comment about denying men the ability to make a fucking living. Jesus Christ, that has to be the stupidest comment of the year.
Yeah, you told us all. Now go hang out on the bench and feed the pigeons so people who get shit done can get more shit done. I'm 52 and this is why I can't wait for the older generation to get the fuck out of the way.
ThomasBrock
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Bob - so I'm a man. A touring musician and composer, Yada yada. I gotta say, you are peak Mansplaining, here bro. Also peak "Male Fragility" (google it). You ask "Are the women winning here?" which misses the point - we all win in a society where rape and sexual harrassment are no longer acceptable.
"Men are entitled to a voice here" - oh, men have had a voice …usually the only voice for the last … well all of human history. All media, government, corporations, religion (!!) mostly owned and operated by men.
"when you prevent a man from pursuing his livelihood, you end up with a very angry man" here you are putting the feelings of abusive men higher in regard than the hurt that they have caused others. Maybe - just maybe - it's ok for men who have abused to have to deal with their anger; we shouldn't keep giving them a free "man pass" to be angry assholes.
Also Kesha was the one who accused Dr. Luke, so the Katy Perry revelation doesn't have much to do with that…..
I know your intentions with this stuff are good but I figured I'd point out some flaws in your thinking that you may not be aware of.
And I'm def NOT unsubscribing, I don't mind being offended ….
Matthew Katz-Bohen
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I'm based in London, work in both the entertainment and charity spheres and have subscribed to your letters for several years now - I was one of the early ones to listen to you about Hamilton and see it on Broadway in 2015 just before it blew up. Yes I flew in specially and it was worth every damn penny!
All I want to say is thank you - not just for this edition of your letter but in general. I enjoy them all, whatever subject they cover. I may not agree with everything you say (though it's rare I'm polar opposite!), you always make me think, always enable me to see past the obvious and explore both news and creative work I would often not otherwise be of, especially in the Uk.
So that's it - thank you for writing, and for all the research, experience, travel and slog that goes into producing your letters, and for providing a depth of analysis and thought that is sadly becoming all too rare.
With very best wishes
Stephanie Jarman
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